A question. From what I've read on your stance on soy, is all soy "good" in your opinion? Across the board? Because my understanding of your viewpoint is that there is no difference between highly-processed soy and traditionally prepared soy. No difference on how it has been consumed in the past by Asians and the way it is consumed now in the US. A clarification would be appreciated as I see that this is the main point of contention between you and many here, including myself.
What I have made very clear in past posts is that I am not a big fan of GMO anything, but I am not going to be paranoid about it either. as I have stated there are many other things in our food supply that I worry about a lot more.
As for processing this does not make something bad. Processing often just means that different components are being extracted. Brown rice is processed to make white rice. Wheat and corn are processed to make flours and starches. Apples are processed to make apple fiber and pectins. Raw sugar is made by the processing of sugar cane or beets. Processing does not make something automatically dangerous, but this is exactly what the anti-soy propagandists seem to be implying.
Turns out that we might not share the mouses "chemistry", but we do share a great deal of their genetic sequence. Medical researchers seem to think that that's important:
Hmm.... Guess what? We share just as much of a genetic similarity with dogs as we do mice:
"Scientists had previously found that about 5 percent of the human genome sequence appears in the mouse genome. The new study shows that 5 percent of the human genome is also shared with dogs."Yet humans can eat things like chocolate, dough and grapes that can kill a dog. And dogs can eat rotting meat that can kill a human. Again we are not mice and we are not dogs. How something affects them IS NOT the same as it will affect us.
cooking and fermenting are two very different processes... with two very different results in terms of end results.
Yes, they are different processes. But many of the outcomes are the same. Cooking and fermentation both destroy many of the so called "toxins" in soy such as the goitrogens and enzyme inhibitors.
>>" as far as pesticides go, again that is a completely different subject. Because you can say that about every single food item that is grown with pesticides. It has nothing to do specifically with soy products at all"<<
*cides* are not a different subject at all, if we are talking about a single food and that food has a history of *cides* being used on them.
Most produce uses "cides". Many of the animals we eat have been exposed to these same "cides", so it really is not a soy issue. People are trying to make this a soy issue because they have an anti-soy agenda.
So yes, if the -*soy* in question has cides used on them, and or are contaminated with them, as all food is these days... then it is relevant to the topic here and NOT a separate issue.
And there is organically grown soy. Yet the anti-soy agenda people don't like mentioning this because it would go against their own agenda. But how many of any non-organic produce do we consume that have not had herbicides or pesticides used on them? So to single out soy when as you point out all grown foods have "cides" used on them or are contaminated with them shows an agenda strictly against soy with a faulty argument. Even "organically grown" plants and meats can be contaminated with "cides".
These *cides* are *poisons* that have a greater negative affect to health combined, than by themselves... and we all know and apple can have as many as 60+ of these *cides* ion them... gives new meaning to Snow White, eh?
And as I pointed out in my previous post many of these "cides" are estrogenic and soy is anti-estrogenic. So you would be safer eating soy with "cides" than you would be with eating an apple with "cides". So why are we not seeing the big anti-apple propaganda campaign since they are more dangerous than soy?
Which brings me to the fact that ALL of these problems with SOY (or any *food* for that matter) are man-made... as it is with most all of our problems in this world today... including the creation of super weeds, super bugs, super microorganisms, and the grievous degradation of the planet's ecosystems, and health, which affect the health of the life on it.
Let's add the loss of the world's bee population, which can lead to worldwide loss of human life if they disappear.
Pesticides and herbicides are big problems in and of themselves; however, when I am referring to pesiticides and GM crops I am talking about those crops which have been genetically engineered to produce their own pesticides. Studies have found that the engineered genetic material is making its way into human intestinal bacteria and they in turn are producing pesticides inside us. Not exactly along the lines ot "good health begins in the gut", is it.
I understand you wanting to seperate GMO soy from other soy. However, when 91% of the products containing soy have GMO soy it is hard to do so. Put it this way: if you consume a product with soy, or soy itself, and it is not clearly labeled "Certified 100% organic", then you have a better than 9 out of 10 chance of consuming GMO soy. If someone told me that a train had a better than 9 out of 10 chance or wrecking, I am not gonna get on that train. I wouldn't even do it if it were a 1 in 10 chance.
Now, is Mercola perhaps over-doing it regarding soy in general? Probably to at least some extent. He, like many others, does pick what supports his views and agenda. Unlike another poster here falsely implied, while I am generally a fan of Mercola, I do not always agree and have posted areas where I disagree both here and on Mercola's forum. Regarding soy though, I do believe there are dangers in non-fermented soy of all kinds, but it is the 91% GMO figure that keeps me away from it regardless.
BTW, I respect your views and your rights to post them. It is a refreshing change in this thread to actually be able to exchange views in a civil manner. Would that others would do the same.
All the best,
Pesticides and herbicides are big problems in and of themselves; however, when I am referring to pesiticides and GM crops I am talking about those crops which have been genetically engineered to produce their own pesticides.
Look at the title on the first post. The subject is not GMO, it is about soy. And the false propaganda that was posted was exposed, which is when you changed the subject to the only thing left to argue about the propaganda, which is GMO.
Studies have found that the engineered genetic material is making its way into human intestinal bacteria and they in turn are producing pesticides inside us.
Why not post the actual studies so they can be reviewed. I am very skeptical when I hear about studies that never get presented because inmost cases they do not really exist.
However, when 91% of the products containing soy have GMO soy it is hard to do so.
And where is the proof that the percentage is that high. Did this number come from another anti-soy misinformation site? Anyone can make up a number or claim.
Now, is Mercola perhaps over-doing it regarding soy in general?
LOL!!! That is an understatement!!!
So did you use another one of your cheap shots to kill that horse DQ before beating it?
Does cooking GMO soy turn it into non-GMO soy? Deos cooking soy detox herbicides and insecticides? Cooking GMO corn has not prevented the genetically modified material from transferring to humans where it has been taken up by intestinal bacteria which are now producing insecticides in our gut.
What is really natural anymore? Most of our foods are filled with artificial sweeteners, dyes and preservatives. Animals are fed petrochemicals or things not part of their natural diet, such as feeding fish meal or ground up sheep to cows. Most of our crops, including some organic ones, have been selectively crossbred, which is not natural. Even most of your clothes are probably made from GMO cotton, and the seeds are used as animal feed. So the real question is why are you focusing all your energy on bashing soy and not every other non-natural thing we are exposed to? This shows a very biased agenda.
As for your question about does cooking destroy the herbicides and pesticides? Actually the answer is yes, many are destroyed. Herbicides and pesticides can be destroyed by oxidation. Heat speeds up oxidative destruction. And something else you overlooked is the fact that many herbicides and pesticides work through their estrogenic properties, which is also why they are carcinogenic. But as was pointed out previously soy's phytoestrogens are anti-estrogen since they lock up the estrogen receptors preventing estrogens and xenoestrogens, such as herbicides and pesticides from latching on to the receptors. If they cannot latch on to the receptors they have NO effect on the body.
It was Dr. Mercola's article, not mine. However, since you responded I will point out that most soy consumed in China and Japan has historically been fermented non-GMO soy. The article specifically points out that it does not apply to fermented non-GMO soy.
No, that is not what the article stated, but hey why start telling the truth now when we are already use to you making stuff up.
By the way as I showed Mercola's article was full of errors, which brings up an important point. JUST BECAUSE IT IS ON THE INTERNET THIS DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY MAKE IT TRUE!!!! A lesson you really need to pay attention to.
And the fact that Mercola did not bother to check his facts first, and the fact that Mercola left out the fact that cooking also inactivates many of the compounds he was talking about just proves that he is also willing to do whatever it takes to mislead the public about soy. So both of you are like GMO peas in a pod. No wonder you went so far off the deep end when I invalidated Mercola's false and misleading claims.
Calling me a liar now, H? Is that better than "a snot" like you slurred in another message?
No, that is not what the article stated, but hey why start telling the truth now when we are already use to you making stuff up.
Here is how the article opens:
"If you were to carefully review the thousands of studies published on soy, I strongly believe you would reach the same conclusion as I have—which is, the risks of consuming unfermented soy products FAR outweigh any possible benefits.
Notice I said unfermented soy products."
Now, tell us again who has their "truth" mixed up? Nice job of another false low blow, H.
Calling me a liar now, H?
Just stating the facts. Are you denying you have lied about me starting the personal attacks over and over? Go back to the beginning of the thread. Notice my response had NOTHING to do with you. Yet you responded immediately with the personal attacks then have repeatedly blamed me for starting them. So if you are going to lie like then you are a liar, simple and true concept!!!
Questioning your defense of soy was hardly a personal attack. Your responses, on the other hand, replete with name-calling, slurs and accusations of lying . . .
By all means, H, make another post, sling more mud and get in the last word as you are compelled to do. The same as you are obviously compelled to attack any who dare disagree with you and the same as you appear to be compelled to make enemies out of anyone who will not be your sycophant and bow down to what you alone say as the only "truth". I have better things to do than wallow further in the depths with you.
Questioning your defense of soy was hardly a personal attack.
Here was your response, the personal attacks are highlighted:
"I have no intention of getting into an extended debate with you (most of us, including myself, have seen where THAT can lead!), but will only say that I continue to find your stubborn defense of soy to be inconsistent with your stated position of being in favor of natural healing. Putting all other arguments aside, the mere fact that 91% of all soy used in the US is genetically modified should be reason enough to avoid soy, as GMO foods which are engineered to withstand Roundup and/or produce their own pesticides are anything but natural."
Now, show me how you did not start with the personal attacks and I will withdrawal my claim you keep lying. Pretty hard to do though when the beyond doubt evidence is staring you right in the face!!!
As I pointed out several times already my first response had NOTHING to do with you personally. You flew off the handle because I showed the MANY flaws in Mercola's claims, who apparently is your God. So how dare anyone question him even if it is a PUBLIC FORUM and people are allowed to post opposing views. But the little dictator DQ does not think anyone should be allowed to post opposing views on PUBLIC FORUMS unless the views do not conflict with DQ's personal views, even if they have been proven wrong. So get off your holy high horse DQ, you are not the master of the PUBLIC FORUMS and your OPINION is no more important than anyone else's.
As for the rest of your post I won't respond because it is pretty clear you are still trying to cover your butt after being caught in all those lies, and other than the one poster defending you I think everyone sees this fact clearly as well.
I'm just not going to buy into the anti-soy-hype
The Chinese have been eating soy products for CENTURIES. They obviously and clearly did not have a falling sperm count problem for all those centuries! LOL! If they had please tell me where 1 billion Chinese came from?
the Japanese also have a very high consumption rate of soy products. And yet they are the longest living people on the planet!
Personally I don't really like soy. I don't eat much of it. But I think this hysterical handwringing about how were all going to grow breasts because we eat some soybeans is just ridiculous
as far as the dangers of GM, that's a different subject. Are using soy is bad because it's bad? Or are you saying it's bad because it's been genetically modified?
If you are trying to make a point about the dangers of genetically modifying our food, fine. But make that point.
But soybeans are nowhere near as dangerous as all of these crusaders on the Internet want us to believe
Finally, someone with common sense!!!