Since the LF supporters have tried their best to bury the evidence against liver flushing deep in massive threads I am putting evidence here making it easy for everyone to find so they can make rational decisions for themselves:
On fecal soaps, which includes soap stones, which are those big squishy blobs people are passing when doing the flushes but some claim do not exist:
"Lipids, especially milk fats, are thought by some to form insoluble soaps with calcium, reducing its bioavailability. However, although this chemical reaction is possible, it does not, in practice, interfere with calcium absorption [
]. The dietary soaps are dissociated at the low pH of the stomach and cannot reform until they reach the ileum, which is beyond the main area of calcium absorption. Fecal soaps are formed from free long-chain saturated fatty acids and unabsorbed calcium. The saturated fatty acids in milk and cheese can displace calcium from phosphates in the ileum, forming less soluble soaps which are excreted, but this has no effect on the absorption of ingested calcium ."
"Frazer has analyzed possible mechanisms for promoting emulsification which will function under the conditions listed above. Bile salts, sometimes considered to be the only essential requirement for producing an emulsion, form only a crude emulsion, with low stability compared with that known to exist in the lumen of the gut. In the second place, soap has been considered as the component in the intestinal contents which renders possible the production of a stable emulsion. It is true that soap is an excellent emulsifying agent in an alkaline solution, but it will not function at a pH on the acid side of 7.5. It has been suggested that so-called "acid soaps" cause emulsification, but Frazer discounts the effectiveness of such compounds, and indicates their complete ineffectiveness in the presence of calcium. Although the presence of cholesterol may enhance the emulsifying action of soap by the formation of soap/cholesterol complexes, such changes will not alter the pH-conditioned character of the soap emulsion."
"It is well known that soaps may comprise a considerable proportion of the stools, especially in the case of subjects on high calcium diets and when abnormalities in fat absorption obtain."
"In normal feces, the fat content makes up a maximum of only 25 to 30% of the dried weight of the feces, and the neutral fat constitutes only about one-fourth of this total. When a bile deficiency occurs, the total fat may comprise as much as 70% of the total dried feces, but it consists almost entirely of fatty acids and soaps. Such a deficient fat utilization results not from a failure in lipolysis, although this is slowed up, but rather from a failure to absorb the fatty acids and soaps in the absence of the solvent action of the bile salts."
"This disease also goes by the name of idiopathic steatorrhea. The stools are frequent and voluminous, containing a large proportion of fats, fatty acids, and soaps."
"Bile contains small amounts of cholesterol, phospholipids, fats, soaps, and bile salts."
"According to West and Todd, 682 the average composition and range in composition of human fistula bile, in parts per 1000, as reported by various workers since 1900, are as follows: total lipids, 3.4 (2.9-4.2); neutral fat, 1.1 (0.4-3.0); fatty acids (including soaps), 1.1 (0.8-1.4); phosphatides, 0.6 (0.5-0.6); and cholesterol, 1.2 (0.8-1.7). A similar compilation, by these authors, of the composition of human bladder bile gives the following values: total lipids, 22.5 (19-26) ; neutral fat, 3.7 (1.5-5.6); fatty acids (including soaps), 9.7 (9-10.9); phosphatides, 2.0 (1.8-2.2); and cholesterol, 6.3 (3.5-9.3)."
"It is now known that, in addition to the bile acids, the phospholipids and soaps in bile contribute to the emulsifying activity."
Descriptions of REAL gallstones:
"The most common type of gallstones, called cholesterol gallstones, often appears yellow in color."
"The remaining 20% of gallstones are composed of calcium and an orange-yellow waste product called bilirubin."
Now, photos from another thread in which someone posted photos of soap stones from flusing and a photo of real gallstones still in a gallbladder. Now that you know what real gallstones look like it is easy to differentiate between the real gallstones and the soap stones formed by the "liver flushing:
If you watched my video series then you would have known that the blobs in this picture are inconsistent in color, texture and shape for real gallstones. They also show no calcification for their size, which REAL gallstones of this size would have been heavily calcified and faceted. In addition, it is physically impossible to pass REAL gallstones greater than 8mm in diameter since this is the maximum dilation of the bile ducts even with a bunch of magnesium to relax the ducts. Yet most of those blobs are in excess of 8mm. Over all there is nothing about those blobs that even remotely make them look like real gallstones. Just someone's wishful thinking. more... Note the faceted structure of the real gallstones seen in the gallbladder photo above, but is lacking in all the pictures of soap stones presented such as the first 2 photos. Also note the color and consistency of the real gallstones in the photo above and then compare them to the first two photos above and the photo below containing soap stones. See how easy it is to differentiate between real gallstones and the soap stones people are passing with the so-called "liver flushes". They are so obviously different that even a lay person can tell the difference easily if they are told the facts of what real gallstones look like. This last photo also shows examples of soap stones produced by a "liver flush. Again they lack all of the characteristics of real gallstones.
If you watched my video series then you would have known that the blobs in this picture are inconsistent in color, texture and shape for real gallstones. They also show no calcification for their size, which REAL gallstones of this size would have been heavily calcified and faceted. In addition, it is physically impossible to pass REAL gallstones greater than 8mm in diameter since this is the maximum dilation of the bile ducts even with a bunch of magnesium to relax the ducts. Yet most of those blobs are in excess of 8mm. Over all there is nothing about those blobs that even remotely make them look like real gallstones. Just someone's wishful thinking.
Note the faceted structure of the real gallstones seen in the gallbladder photo above, but is lacking in all the pictures of soap stones presented such as the first 2 photos. Also note the color and consistency of the real gallstones in the photo above and then compare them to the first two photos above and the photo below containing soap stones. See how easy it is to differentiate between real gallstones and the soap stones people are passing with the so-called "liver flushes". They are so obviously different that even a lay person can tell the difference easily if they are told the facts of what real gallstones look like.
This last photo also shows examples of soap stones produced by a "liver flush. Again they lack all of the characteristics of real gallstones.
That's a very nice comprehensive list of (F)alse "(E)vidence"(A)ppearing, (R)eal.
But it does not change the fact that liver flushes worked for me and my health improved tremendously following several of the liver flushes that I did. I have no need to "scam" anyone because there is no money to be made off of sharing my experience of success doing liver flushes. The olive oil industry is not pushing liver flushes, neither are lemon or grapefruit farmers, or evenEpsom Salt manufacturers. Therefore as anyone can see there is not a scam regarding liver flushes and there is no real incentive to produce a confidence game other than to bring the truth regarding personal experience that many people have had.
a confidence game or other fraudulent scheme, especially for making a quick profit; swindle.
As I already pointed out and you ignored there are people writing books pushing the flushes and even kits being sold. Thus it fits the definition of a scam.
Very unethical and illegal in some instances. This particular scam man was asked several times if these flushes competed with a product he promotes and his answer was an unqualified no. I was informed recently that he sell Bitters as his alternative to cleansing the liver/gallbladder, a poor substitute that is apparently a lucrative money making product.What some people will do or say for a few sheckles is outrageous. Stifling peoples healing progress just to make a couple of stinking bucks.
Yet another example of how far the LF supporters will go with their lies to fit their needs. If you read my forum first of all you will see that I recommend Grape Bitters or Chinese Bitters. I do not sell either one. I tell people to get these at a health food store or online.
Secondly, as I pointed out that bitters do things that "liver flushing" does not do such as dissolves gallstones and cleanses the liver of toxins as well as raising stomach acid and pancreatic enzymes. So even if I did sell bitters they would not be in competition with LFs since bitters actually work.
A person who sells all manner of herbs and herbal formulations, including some that he wants to patent, is trying to discredit an almost free process that makes many of his formulas irrelevant. This is about the most succinct way to describe what has been going on.
Thanks LisaMarie for once again showing how far the LF supporters will go with their lies to protect their LF cult. I am not trying to patent any formula and never even tried or had an interest. Just more proof how the LF supporters live in a fantasy world where they simply make up whatever they need to believe in.
I would say the closest product I have seen that involves the Liver/gall bladder flush, is the Dr Schulze product.
You could not pay me to take any of the Schulze formulas. They are full of herbs I would not recommend due to safety issues, and I see him making the most common mistake I see in formulations. That is the blending of high tannin herbs in to formulations, which binds nutrients and active components from other herbs rendering them useless to the body. This is why I do not like the old school teachings of Schulze, Christopher, etc. We have come light years ahead in our understanding of herbs and their chemistry compared to these old school teachings. It is time that herbalists like these catch up to modern times and learn the chemistry of these herbs for safety reasons as well as learning their interactions.
The Dr Schulze product also promotes the use of garlic, which many people believe should not be ingested. That doesn't mean that the use of garlic is a scam.
I never said it was.
Your rhetoric regarding theLiver Flush coupled with a persons discernment and logic only bolsters the claim that liver flushes work. Your evidence is full of holes and incomplete. And your explanations illogical and fallacious.
Just because you cannot present anything as evidence to counter the facts that I have presented this does not make the real facts illogical or fallacious. If you want to talk illogical then explain to all of us how people are passing "stones" larger in size or in number than the gallbladder itself. Oh that's right, you don't present evidence since your claims are illogical and fallacious. You only attack those that present real evidence. You cannot provide proof when proof does not exist so you make up claims that make no sense and are obviously decieving.
with no proof that the flushes don't help people improve their health. What a charade. nothing but a display of childish behavior.
No proof that people are passing real gallstones or liver stones as is being claimed. Funny how the LF supporters demand proof that the flushes do not work but refuse to provide proof that what they are passing are really gallstones and liver stones as is being claimed.
"Funny how the LF supporters demand proof that the flushes do not work"
This is what I mean, your inability to deal rationally on this subject is amazing.
LOL!!! Is delusional thinking a side effect of "liver flushing". Sure seems like it seeing how many outright lies the LF supporters have posted. Or maybe they simply do not understand the definition of the words they like to throw around such as "rational". Let me explain something to you that you clearly do not understand. Rational is looking at the claims and providing real evidence to prove those claims wrong using science, an understanding of actual human anatomy and physiology and common sense. Irrational is claiming those who present evidence are wrong with no evidence and believing in the physically and scientifically impossible just to follow a bunch of other nutcases that will believe any quackery they read on the internet.
I have released a hard shelled stone from the liver flushing protocol. Others have released hard stones as well. The article indicates that the soap stones are formed by mixture with calcium, primarily through ingestion of milk fats or cheese. Beside the fact that we are all doing a solid 24 hour fasting period during the protocol, I do not have milk fat or cheese as a component of my normal diet. I am vegan. I have also gone into this protocol with a preceding day of juice fasting, hence no kind fat exposure. People have gone into this protocol after extended fasts (such as the Master Cleanse), with no fat, particularly milkfat exposure. They have produced stones. It is possible that some of these blobs are soap stones, but I do not believe the evidence indicates that for all of them.
Thank you for your interesting contribution to the discussion.
What you have to keep in mind is that plants can be excellent sources of calcium. Where do you suppose cows get their calcium for their bones and milk?
Plants can also be excellent sources of fats. Ever hear of vegetable oils? Flax seed oil? Hemp oil? Cotton seed oil? Milk thistle oil? Palm oil?......................
As for real gallbladder stones I have never denied that ingestion of oil can cause gallbladder contractions allowing expulsion of very small stones. I have stated that several times in the past and it was never in question. In fact, if you read some of the posts on my forum I specially state that it is a good idea to consume small amounts of oil with meals if you have a gallbladder to help prevent stagnation of the bile. The problem is that LF supporters never really read what I actually said and kept claiming that I said things that I never said so the arguments get out of hand as they keep twisting things. What I have been saying all along is that those big green squishy blobs that people are claiming are gallstones or liver stones are not consistent with REAL gallstones or liver stones and that it is IMPOSSIBLE to pass real stones that size through the ducts.
I am aware of everything you speak regarding plant calcium (particularly in dark leafy greens) and plant fats (not high quantity in most plants). That is why I was confident in my claim. When I said juice fast, I meant carrot, which does not have much appreciable fat content nor is it rich in calcium content.
Calcium availability is dependent on various factors including whether or not the source is also high in oxalates. Carrots, which contain more calcium that human breast milk, do not contain high levels of oxalates. So it is a good source of calcium, especially when juiced.
As for fats, that depends a lot on the part of the plant being used and the plant. Look at nuts and avocados for example.
Also keep in mind that fatty acids are generated by the fermentation of fibers by our intestinal flora. So there can be hidden sources people do not think about.
Now I can't remember if on my fast I absolutely ate zero greens that day or the day before, in addition to my carrot juice I may have eaten some fruit and some spring greens. So I will run the test again during my next flush, with a carrot juice fast in the spirit of experimental inquiry.
As I mentioned above there are often other sources of fats people over look. You just mentioned fasting. Guess what is increased in the process of fasting, or even the consumption of bitter foods like some greens? The body breaks down fat stores, much of which is excreted through the intestines. For example, when people start using bitters they will generally find that their stools float. This is from the flushing of fats that were being stored in the body.
What strikes me clearly from the article you present is the emphasis on milkfat (with it's combination of high calcium and high fat at the same time). I wonder how much soapstone formation has been documented from dietary sources other than that.
Well, if we check the research on fecal soaps a lot of the research in is cattle grazing on grass. I have also seen some research on poultry that were not feeding on milk either.
My hard shell stone, though I did not measure it, had an apparent size from visual assessment of roughly half an inch (12.5 mm). Now I know you will first claim that being unofficially measured, that the number is inadmissable, although in real life applications, technicians often operate successfully by quick assessment which can be made accurately when they have enough experience. I had already measured many stones so I believe I had some capacity to make an accurate visual measurement.
That aside, let us take the claim as a possible truth. I'm sure that 8 mm maximum diameter of the bile duct is an average number, so some people could pass larger than this.
No, actually that is the maximum. The average is 2-4mm.
Furthermore, where, when and how were these maximums determined, do you know any sources on this?
Off hand I cannot tell you where I found it since that was quite a while ago. But I have quite a library on science and medicine at home and I do a ton of research from Medline and other medical sources, both mainstream and alternative, all the time. So again I could not tell you off hand where that information is. But I have never seen any evidence anywhere that the bile ducts can expand to 25mm, which is the size of some of the fecal soap stones people have claimed to be gallstones. I even heard one person claim to have passed a baseball sized stone!!! First of all the gallbladder is not even large enough to hold a stone that big without rupturing. But more importantly is that real gallstones have specific characteristics that can tell someone whether or not it is a real stone or a soap stone. And the photos that were presented of the "stones" after flushing by LisaMarie clearly were not real gallstones. The texture alone was a major give-a-way that they were fecal soaps. Look and compare them to the picture of the real gallstones in the gallbladder she also posted. If you look closely you will see what I am talking about.
It seems conceivable to think that the hyperdosing with magnesium could possibly effect the duct to have different properties (and I doubt the reference number was measured under those conditions).
That is like saying that if I heat up a rubber band a few degrees it will significantly increase its elasticity. If a rubber band can only stretch 4 inches maximum, warming it up a few degrees is not going to make it go another inch, or even a 1/16th of an inch. A rubber band can only expand so far regardless just like the bile ducts can only expand so far. This is why people have lodged stones in their bile ducts during flushes despite taking magnesium.
I do know that during my third flush (my first truly eventful flush, after which they have all been successes) I had a substantial, fiery pain in the gallbladder region followed by a euphoric release. There was something substantial loosened and expelled. If subsequent blobs were mostly soap stones formed with oxidated, biliverdin rich bile that was finally able to flow, then so be it.
I believe your soap stone claim has some legitimacy. Especially when speaking of stones that are the size of a baseball or a golfball, which I have read a couple times. Yes, that doesn't make much sense. It is also hard to imagine where all these stones are being stored for people releasing several tens of thousands (although as it is typically done over the years, and many here seem to not correct the diet, perhaps they are reforming many stones)
Stones are extremely slow to form and grow to any significant size. This is why the people who claim to pass cups of stones then do the same thing a few days later are simply providing more evidence that those big blobs are nothing more than soap stones. And as I pointed out before the sterols in olive oil will also bind cholesterol creating congealed matter. Impurities get caught in it during the formation creating the colors. And the dye experiment where people mix dye in the olive oil then ingest it further proves this fact since the dye never reaches the liver or gallbladder. So the fact that the dye ends up in the middle of these "stones" conclusively proves that they were formed in the intestines, not the liver nor the gallbladder.
As I have mentioned in various other posts over the years the large amount of oil can contract the gallbladder to help remove sludge and even tiny stones, as well as helping to prevent bile stagnation. That is why I recommend small amounts of fats/oil with meals to help keep the bile moving. One thing I find very ironic though is that anyone who disagrees with "liver flushing" is branded "pro-pharma". But the "liver flush supporters are using a pro-pharma mentality of using the old shotgun approach to address a problem. The non-pharma approach to healing is small doses and slow and steady. The pro-pharma approach is to force the issue with high doses, just like the “liver flush” supporters are doing. For example, you bought up calcium earlier. Why is the recommended daily intake 1200mg when the body needs nowhere near that amount? Simple, the study was based on the very poorly absorbed calcium carbonate. So the researchers surmised that if the person just took a much larger dose that enough of this calcium would absorb to have an effect. Even with later stage of type 2 diabetes they put the person on insulin even though the body is producing enough to more than enough insulin. The idea is that if they push larger amounts of insulin then they can bypass the insulin resistance rather than addressing the insulin resistance. Again the “liver flush” supporters method of attempting to deal with gallstones is the alternative mirror image of allopathic big pharma’s lack of reasoning in treatment.
And this extends beyond the shotgun approach reasoning. It also applies to the same thing people in the alternative healing fields complain about allopathic medicine and big pharma of treating the symptom and not the cause. Liver flushing does not treat the cause of gallstones either. So ironically the “liver flush” supporters are the Siamese twin of allopathic medicine and big pharma!!!
I'm curious, what do you think of the liver flukes?
Not sure what you want to know. Yes they exist, and yes they are a problem especially in some parts of the world. But Hulda Clark really over hyped the issue to the point of giving alternative medicine a real big black eye with her ridiculous claims.
By the way, I want to thank you for having a nice discussion of the subject. It is a nice change from the constant having to fight back against the numerous trolls here on Curezone that simply think that their word is solid proof and make up claims about you if you disagree with them. Their false claims then become like pheromones singling the attack by the other trolls who then swarm in. I have enjoyed the change and the calm discussion, so thanks again.